Re: Mold Prevention coatings applied during new construction

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I would have to agree with John L. This chat room should be promoting the
industry as a whole. I also agree with Robert, that the facts, not opinions
should be addressed. There can only be one set of facts. I have done
extensive research on the following: Aegis, BioShield, Nova, CIA, Microbe
Guard, Microshield, American Mold Guard, Envirocare, PCG, Anabec, Fosters,
Anti-growth, Mold Block, Microban and Fiberlock. I have contacted and spoke
to people at the EPA and the three different States.

THis industry is in a fast growing pace and growing faster everyday. THe more
attention this industry gets, the more people want to get involved. Everyone
makes claims, some true, most false. If we as and industry do not work
together to better the industry as a whole, then we are all doomed to be be
associated with fly by night con men. I operate a small mold prevention
business and have been a restoration contractor since 1985. I have used all
of the above manufacturers products. YES, all of them! I have worked with
half a dozen other mold prevention contractor around the country going over
the same issues that we are all discussing here.

I have spent my money to test and have tested all the above products. I have
spoke to several EPA officials, several building associations and several
States. Here is what I know as fact!

1. MOld is the biggest issue facing builders and homeowners across the country.
2. Mold is every where and on everything.
3. Builders need to prevent the growth of mold on the homes that they build.

So what is the best product, or products to accomplish this? Is EPA
registration required? Is EPA Registration important? How important is a
warranty? What is the difference between manufacturer warranty and third
party warranty? Here are the facts!

1. What mold prevention product(s) do you use?
Is it a private label name or is the real product name. Several people use
private labels of their product, however the products are the same. American
Mold Guard, Microbe Guard, Anabec and Nova use BioShield. CIA and Microbe
Guard use Aegis. Microshield and Fiberlock use Microban.

2. Who manufacture’s the mold prevention product(s)?
To ensure the product is manufactured by recognized, reputable manufacturer.
How financially stable is the manufacturer, how long have they been in
business, who is backing the product should it fail? Aegis's product has been
around for 27 years, Bioshield's product for 12 years, Nova for 2 years,
Fosters' products for 10 years, Envirocare for 3 years, PCG less than 1 year,
Microban 5 years. A product that has not been out for long can not make any
real claims on performance, can they? How can they have any real case
studies? Real world and lab are WAAAYYYY different.

3. Is the product(s) EPA Registered? Should it be? I have copied the
following from the EPA offical web site:
"EPA registers and regulates antimicrobial pesticides under the Federal
Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA). To obtain registration,
manufacturers of antimicrobial products must meet the basic standards, the
foremost being: 1) that the product will not cause unreasonable adverse
effects to human health or the environment, and 2) that product labeling and
composition comply with the requirements of FIFRA. Moreover, manufacturers are
required to submit to EPA detailed and specific information concerning the
chemical composition of their product; effectiveness data to document their
claims against specific microorganisms and to support the directions for use
provided in labeling; labeling that reflects the required elements for safe
and effective use; and toxicology data to document any hazards associated with
use of the product."

The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) requires the
registration of any substance or mixtures of substances intended to prevent,
destroy, repel, or mitigate pests. However, the Code of Federal Regulations
prescribes the conditions under which an exemption from registration is
allowed for treated articles or substances. It allows an exemption for:
An article or a substance treated with or containing a pesticide to protect
the article or substance itself (for example, paint treated with a pesticide
to protect the paint coating) HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART THAT PCG,
ENVIROCARE, FORTICEL, FOSTERS AND MOLD BLOCK DO NOT WNAT YOU TO KNOW OR MAYBE
THEY DO NOT KNOW IT THEMSELFS;
•Claims for treated articles or substances are limited to the following
statement, "This product contains a preservative (e.g., fungicide or
insecticide) built-in or applied as a coating only to protect the product. An
example of an acceptable label statement would be:
Antimicrobial properties are built-in to inhibit the growth of bacteria that
may affect this product. The antimicrobial properties do not protect users or
others against bacteria, viruses, germs, or other disease organisms.

I have some first hand knowledge of this. I was sent a Cease & Desist order
from the EPA concerning the sell, application and marketing of PCG's three
products: Forticell, Agility and Mycodene. PCG was marketing their products
with claims that their product prevent the growth of mold on many surfaces.
THat is an illegal claim. PCG, Envirocare, Microban, Forticel and Mold Block
have EPA registered additives in their coating (paint) the coating can only
prevent the growth of mold on the surface of the paint coating. It will not
protect the wood or kill mold on the wood. I have copies of the Cease and
desist order should anyone like to see it.

4.Provide MSDS and Technical Bulletin for each product.
The MSDS shows you the safety of the product and lists any dangerous
ingredients or dangerous health effects of the product. PCG do not even list
their ingredients. What are they hiding? BioShield, Nova, Fosters, Fiberlock
have several product for specific industries, make sure you get the right
one.The technical bulletin explains exactly how the product can be used as per
manufactures specifications.

5.Does the company carry insurance that covers Mold or do they have E & O
insurance that covers mold? Almost every company told us that they have
insurance that covers mold. We checked. Most of them LIE! Ask for a copy of
their policy and call the insuarne company yourself.

6.What warranty comes with your product and service? Manufacturer or third
party warranty?
Read and understand all warranties to verify what is being covered and how
much is being covered. I have seen much debate over this as of late. Do any
of you remember when H.O.W. filed for bankruptcy in the late 80's. THey left
hundreds of thousand of people with out warranties. EVERY STATE passed laws
after that to protect the consumer. Warranty Companies are now required to
keep 65% of their funds in an untouchable account and they can only warranty a
certain amount of business based on their finacial reserves. Manufacturers
can warranty anything that they want. What does this mean to all of us? ALL
warranties are only as good as the financial stability of the manufacturer.
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO BE SURE OF!!!!!!!!!!!!! Several of the
above manufacturers just started out. I checked! PCG started in April of
2004. My company is substantially bigger than them. Envirocare has been
kicked out of most markets by their own applicators. Microban has been kicked
out of many other countries, so they spun off a new Microban company. Fosters,
Aegis, Nova and Fiberlock are the only companies with any size. Nova is in
legal trouble with the owner of their technology, BioShield. Again, check the
facts, don't call the manufacturer. Anyone can tell you that they are
financially secure, if so, where are your financial statments? THird party
warranty is governed by insurance and state laws. Manufacturer warranties are
only as good as the manufacturer. Maybe the Manufacturer is much bigger than
the warranty company? Maybe the manufacturer is in big financial trouble?

7. What is the chemistry behind the product or how does the product actually
prevent the growth of mold? Anyone can tell you that their product kills and
prevents the growth of mold, but how does it do it? The same way that we
can. Aegis, Anabec,American Mold Guard and Microbe Guard use a technology
based off a DOW Corning invention back in the 70's. Their products kill by
creating positively charge swords on the surface that is treated. THis stabbs
and electrocutes the mold. This coating is not digested by the mold and is a
permanent treatment. Envirocare and PCG use silver ions that are slowly
released when moisture is present to interupt the dna/growth/ cell activities
of the mold. THe mold most com into contact with the silver to be affected.
Good in theory, if you could plate the whole house. THis product will be
washed off water and overtime will be ineffective. Fosters, Fiberlock and
Microban use poisons. THe mold must digest the poison for the product to be
effective. This causes the product to loose effectiveness overtime as the
mold eats away the coating. It also cause the mold to become resistant to the
poison over time. Think about it, how does the mold prevention treatment
effect the mold? Stop believing what you hear and start believing in what you
see and prove for yourself.

8.Are the applicators certified or trained to apply the product?
Microban, forticel, fosters, Nova, PCG and Envirocare certification is the
purchase of the product. In other words, there is NONE. If you buy it, you
can apply it. Agian I know because I have. Aegis makes you go through the
CIA or Microbe Guard. Microbe Guard and Anabec require training only if you
want a warranty.

9.How long has their products been on the market? List references.
Products come and go. Lead paint and asbestos were thought to be safe and
turned out to be harmful. Just because they say it works in a lab, does not
mean that it works in real world applications. Show independent verification,
not in house verification. PCG just opened up, Envirocare's product came out
in 2002, Aegis's product came out in 1976, Foster's products came out over the
last ten years with products like 42-42 less than 2 years. Microban has
changed corporate structure so often I can't tell.

10.How long have the companies you been in business?
Have the company been in business long enough to show their ability to survive
in a hostile market. Will they be around long enough to stand behind their
product? THis again falls back to who is backing the warranty? If the
manufacturer has been around for a long time, chances are they will remain.
If the manufacturer is new or has a short lived history, then I would want to
see some financial statsments.

11.What professional organizations do you belong to?
Many organizations require training, proof of financial responsibility,
continued education and mandate ethical business practices. Request
verification of membership with professional organizations.

Call you local EPA OFFICE and ask them the questions. THey will point you to
the truth.

On 11/05/04, John L. wrote:
> On 11/03/04, Robert wrote:
>> On 11/03/04, Gilligan wrote:
>>> On 11/02/04, Robert wrote:
>>>> EPA registration is important only if you are actually applying a
>>>> pesticide. The EPA regulates pesticides. Most of the mold
>>>> prevention products do not contain pesticides. All the mold Killers
>>>> contain pesticides.
>>>>
>>>> Paint products have all kinds of additives added to them and they do
>>>> not require EPA approval. The new mold prevention products are under
>>>> the same requirements. Those of you, who do not understand the
>>>> guidelines of the Gov't and what they are for are mislead
>>>> individuals.
>>>>
>>>> I have been a builder for years and understand water intrusions and
>>>> mold. To prevent is better than to react.
>>>>
>>>> Several of the products on the market are designed to kill existing
>>>> mold on the product surface. This is good, but they do not last
>>>> (check the warranty claims) they also can be washed off by a water
>>>> intrusion over time. (once again not good because mold needs moisture
>>>> to grow).
>>>>
>>>> Once you actually check out the facts you all will see that you should
>>>> prevent mold growth over the long term, see your states home owners
>>>> warranty (most are 10 years and then some).
>>>>
>>>> Be very careful of fast talking salesmen that try to scare you away
>>>> from products or into using product. These guys are no good. Check
>>>> the facts warranties are very important, and it doesn't really matter
>>>> what state the parent company resides in. If the manufacturer doesn't
>>>> warrant the product then don't trust them. Chevy and Ford stand
>>>> behind their products so do several companies out there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>