Re: Mold Prevention coatings applied during new construction

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Why is it everybody on this website states "I have used all the products" how
could someone, this mold prevention thing is really less than 3 years old. It
is just starting to kick into high gear. Yes some companies have been around
for a long time, but does that make them and their products the best. Old
technology for old solutions. Several of the products actually use multi methods
for dealing with mold. (i.e. Forticel from PCG actually uses 3 types of
antimicrobials not just one) I talked with Lenny from PCG and he would not tell
me the ingrediants but I think we all have a good idea what 3 compounds are
used.
I also contacted the EPA and they are more concerned with how each product is
marketed not how effective each product is. So talking to them will get the
average builder no where other than to say that everything they claim meets
code. Which anyone who does gov't work knows is worth nothing.
Warranties are as good as the company, this has been true since the age of
time. The same can be said for 3rd party insurance claims.
I have a background in microbiology and one thing I do know that has been
incorrectly stated that silver ions wash off. The silver ions will hold up the
best to the "washing off" tests that I have seen.

As a good builder, one has to look at all the options, warranty, ease of
applicaiton, downtime to crews, customer service, etc. I have seen pros and
cons to all the products and I don't think any one product is far superior to
any of the others. They all seem to work to some degree, which is better than
no application at all.

Price is big in my market and since we live in the far NE winter applications
are crucial. This is something that the Florida's and Cal don't have to worry
about, but several Aegis applicators up here say they can not fog below
freezing. Which makes sense, so spray on applications during the winter are much
more appealing.

I would like to stop seeing all you "experts" which I'm sure are company
salesmen or company presidents just trying to market your products by chopping
down other companies, just stop and start help us builders learn the ins and
outs of applications and mold issues.

On 11/12/04, Concerned wrote:
> I would have to agree with John L. This chat room should be promoting the
> industry as a whole. I also agree with Robert, that the facts, not opinions
> should be addressed. There can only be one set of facts. I have done
> extensive research on the following: Aegis, BioShield, Nova, CIA, Microbe
> Guard, Microshield, American Mold Guard, Envirocare, PCG, Anabec, Fosters,
> Anti-growth, Mold Block, Microban and Fiberlock. I have contacted and spoke
> to people at the EPA and the three different States.
>
> THis industry is in a fast growing pace and growing faster everyday. THe more
> attention this industry gets, the more people want to get involved. Everyone
> makes claims, some true, most false. If we as and industry do not work
> together to better the industry as a whole, then we are all doomed to be be
> associated with fly by night con men. I operate a small mold prevention
> business and have been a restoration contractor since 1985. I have used all
> of the above manufacturers products. YES, all of them! I have worked with
> half a dozen other mold prevention contractor around the country going over
> the same issues that we are all discussing here.
>
> I have spent my money to test and have tested all the above products. I have
> spoke to several EPA officials, several building associations and several
> States. Here is what I know as fact!
>
> 1. MOld is the biggest issue facing builders and homeowners across the country.
> 2. Mold is every where and on everything.
> 3. Builders need to prevent the growth of mold on the homes that they build.
>
> So what is the best product, or products to accomplish this? Is EPA
> registration required? Is EPA Registration important? How important is a
> warranty? What is the difference between manufacturer warranty and third
> party warranty? Here are the facts!
>
> 1. What mold prevention product(s) do you use?
> Is it a private label name or is the real product name. Several people use
> private labels of their product, however the products are the same. American
> Mold Guard, Microbe Guard, Anabec and Nova use BioShield. CIA and Microbe
> Guard use Aegis. Microshield and Fiberlock use Microban.
>
> 2. Who manufacture’s the mold prevention product(s)?
> To ensure the product is manufactured by recognized, reputable manufacturer.
> How financially stable is the manufacturer, how long have they been in
> business, who is backing the product should it fail? Aegis's product has been
> around for 27 years, Bioshield's product for 12 years, Nova for 2 years,
> Fosters' products for 10 years, Envirocare for 3 years, PCG less than 1 year,
> Microban 5 years. A product that has not been out for long can not make any
> real claims on performance, can they? How can they have any real case
> studies? Real world and lab are WAAAYYYY different.
>
> 3. Is the product(s) EPA Registered? Should it be? I have copied the
> following from the EPA offical web site:
> "EPA registers and regulates antimicrobial pesticides under the Federal
> Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA). To obtain registration,
> manufacturers of antimicrobial products must meet the basic standards, the
> foremost being: 1) that the product will not cause unreasonable adverse
> effects to human health or the environment, and 2) that product labeling and
> composition comply with the requirements of FIFRA. Moreover, manufacturers are
> required to submit to EPA detailed and specific information concerning the
> chemical composition of their product; effectiveness data to document their
> claims against specific microorganisms and to support the directions for use
> provided in labeling; labeling that reflects the required elements for safe
> and effective use; and toxicology data to document any hazards associated with
> use of the product."
>
> The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) requires the
> registration of any substance or mixtures of substances intended to prevent,
> destroy, repel, or mitigate pests. However, the Code of Federal Regulations
> prescribes the conditions under which an exemption from registration is
> allowed for treated articles or substances. It allows an exemption for:
> An article or a substance treated with or containing a pesticide to protect
> the article or substance itself (for example, paint treated with a pesticide
> to protect the paint coating) HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART THAT PCG,
> ENVIROCARE, FORTICEL, FOSTERS AND MOLD BLOCK DO NOT WNAT YOU TO KNOW OR MAYBE
> THEY DO NOT KNOW IT THEMSELFS;
> •Claims for treated articles or substances are limited to the following
> statement, "This product contains a preservative (e.g., fungicide or
> insecticide) built-in or applied as a coating only to protect the product. An
> example of an acceptable label statement would be:
> Antimicrobial properties are built-in to inhibit the growth of bacteria that
> may affect this product. The antimicrobial properties do not protect users or
> others against bacteria, viruses, germs, or other disease organisms.
>
> I have some first hand knowledge of this. I was sent a Cease & Desist order
> from the EPA concerning the sell, application and marketing of PCG's three
> products: Forticell, Agility and Mycodene. PCG was marketing their products
> with claims that their product prevent the growth of mold on many surfaces.
> THat is an illegal claim. PCG, Envirocare, Microban, Forticel and Mold Block
> have EPA registered additives in their coating (paint) the coating can only
> prevent the growth of mold on the surface of the paint coating. It will not
> protect the wood or kill mold on the wood. I have copies of the Cease and
> desist order should anyone like to see it.
>
>
> 4.Provide MSDS and Technical Bulletin for each product.
> The MSDS shows you the safety of the product and lists any dangerous
> ingredients or dangerous health effects of the product. PCG do not even list
> their ingredients. What are they hiding? BioShield, Nova, Fosters, Fiberlock
> have several product for specific industries, make sure you get the right
> one.The technical bulletin explains exactly how the product can be used as per
> manufactures specifications.
>
> 5.Does the company carry insurance that covers Mold or do they have E & O
> insurance that covers mold? Almost every company told us that they have
> insurance that covers mold. We checked. Most of them LIE! Ask for a copy of
> their policy and call the insuarne company yourself.
>
> 6.What warranty comes with your product and service? Manufacturer or third
> party warranty?
> Read and understand all warranties to verify what is being covered and how
> much is being covered. I have seen much debate over this as of late. Do any
> of you remember when H.O.W. filed for bankruptcy in the late 80's. THey left
> hundreds of thousand of people with out warranties. EVERY STATE passed laws
> after that to protect the consumer. Warranty Companies are now required to
> keep 65&37; of their funds in an untouchable account and they can only
warranty a
> certain amount of business based on their finacial reserves. Manufacturers
> can warranty anything that they want. What does this mean to all of us? ALL
> warranties are only as good as the financial stability of the manufacturer.
> THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO BE SURE OF!!!!!!!!!!!!! Several of the
> above manufacturers just started out. I checked! PCG started in April of
> 2004. My company is substantially bigger than them. Envirocare has been
> kicked out of most markets by their own applicators. Microban has been kicked
> out of many other countries, so they spun off a new Microban company. Fosters,
> Aegis, Nova and Fiberlock are the only companies with any size. Nova is in
> legal trouble with the owner of their technology, BioShield. Again, check the
> facts, don't call the manufacturer. Anyone can tell you that they are
> financially secure, if so, where are your financial statments? THird party
> warranty is governed by insurance and state laws. Manufacturer warranties are
> only as good as the manufacturer. Maybe the Manufacturer is much bigger than
> the warranty company? Maybe the manufacturer is in big financial trouble?
>
>
> 7. What is the chemistry behind the product or how does the product actually
> prevent the growth of mold? Anyone can tell you that their product kills and
> prevents the growth of mold, but how does it do it? The same way that we
> can. Aegis, Anabec,American Mold Guard and Microbe Guard use a technology
> based off a DOW Corning invention back in the 70's. Their products kill by
> creating positively charge swords on the surface that is treated. THis stabbs
> and electrocutes the mold. This coating is not digested by the mold and is a
> permanent treatment. Envirocare and PCG use silver ions that are slowly
> released when moisture is present to interupt the dna/growth/ cell activities
> of the mold. THe mold most com into contact with the silver to be affected.
> Good in theory, if you could plate the whole house. THis product will be
> washed off water and overtime will be ineffective. Fosters, Fiberlock and
> Microban use poisons. THe mold must digest the poison for the product to be
> effective. This causes the product to loose effectiveness overtime as the
> mold eats away the coating. It also cause the mold to become resistant to the
> poison over time. Think about it, how does the mold prevention treatment
> effect the mold? Stop believing what you hear and start believing in what you
> see and prove for yourself.
>
> 8.Are the applicators certified or trained to apply the product?
> Microban, forticel, fosters, Nova, PCG and Envirocare certification is the
> purchase of the product. In other words, there is NONE. If you buy it, you
> can apply it. Agian I know because I have. Aegis makes you go through the
> CIA or Microbe Guard. Microbe Guard and Anabec require training only if you
> want a warranty.
>
> 9.How long has their products been on the market? List references.
> Products come and go. Lead paint and asbestos were thought to be safe and
> turned out to be harmful. Just because they say it works in a lab, does not
> mean that it works in real world applications. Show independent verification,
> not in house verification. PCG just opened up, Envirocare's product came out
> in 2002, Aegis's product came out in 1976, Foster's products came out over the
> last ten years with products like 42-42 less than 2 years. Microban has
> changed corporate structure so often I can't tell.
>
> 10.How long have the companies you been in business?
> Have the company been in business long enough to show their ability to survive
> in a hostile market. Will they be around long enough to stand behind their
> product? THis again falls back to who is backing the warranty? If the
> manufacturer has been around for a long time, chances are they will remain.
> If the manufacturer is new or has a short lived history, then I would want to
> see some financial statsments.
>
> 11.What professional organizations do you belong to?
> Many organizations require training, proof of financial responsibility,
> continued education and mandate ethical business practices. Request
> verification of membership with professional organizations.
>
>
> Call you local EPA OFFICE and ask them the questions. THey will point you to
> the truth.
>
>
> On 11/05/04, John L. wrote:
>> On 11/03/04, Robert wrote:
>>> On 11/03/04, Gilligan wrote:
>>>> On 11/02/04, Robert wrote:
>>>>> EPA registration is important only if you are actually applying a
>>>>> pesticide. The EPA regulates pesticides. Most of the mold
>>>>> prevention products do not contain pesticides. All the mold Killers
>>>>> contain pesticides.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paint products have all kinds of additives added to them and they do
>>>>> not require EPA approval. The new mold prevention products are under
>>>>> the same requirements. Those of you, who do not understand the
>>>>> guidelines of the Gov't and what they are for are mislead
>>>>> individuals.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been a builder for years and understand water intrusions and
>>>>> mold. To prevent is better than to react.
>>>>>
>>>>> Several of the products on the market are designed to kill existing
>>>>> mold on the product surface. This is good, but they do not last
>>>>> (check the warranty claims) they also can be washed off by a water
>>>>> intrusion over time. (once again not good because mold needs moisture
>>>>> to grow).
>>>>>
>>>>> Once you actually check out the facts you all will see that you should
>>>>> prevent mold growth over the long term, see your states home owners
>>>>> warranty (most are 10 years and then some).
>>>>>
>>>>> Be very careful of fast talking salesmen that try to scare you away
>>>>> from products or into using product. These guys are no good. Check
>>>>> the facts warranties are very important, and it doesn't really matter
>>>>> what state the parent company resides in. If the manufacturer doesn't
>>>>> warrant the product then don't trust them. Chevy and Ford stand
>>>>> behind their products so do several companies out there.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>