Re: Mold Prevention coatings applied during new construction
Posted by NC on 11/16/04
Very informative. Glad to see the desire to get the facts and want the industry to
be accountable. I wish you all the best. I plan to send this to a friend that will
be building a home in PA. Thank you for the time you spent writing the details.
11/16/04, Facts only please wrote:
> Why is it everybody on this website states "I have used all the products" how
> could someone, this mold prevention thing is really less than 3 years old. It
> is just starting to kick into high gear. Yes some companies have been around
> for a long time, but does that make them and their products the best. Old
> technology for old solutions. Several of the products actually use multi methods
> for dealing with mold. (i.e. Forticel from PCG actually uses 3 types of
> antimicrobials not just one) I talked with Lenny from PCG and he would not tell
> me the ingrediants but I think we all have a good idea what 3 compounds are
> I also contacted the EPA and they are more concerned with how each product is
> marketed not how effective each product is. So talking to them will get the
> average builder no where other than to say that everything they claim meets
> code. Which anyone who does gov't work knows is worth nothing.
> Warranties are as good as the company, this has been true since the age of
> time. The same can be said for 3rd party insurance claims.
> I have a background in microbiology and one thing I do know that has been
> incorrectly stated that silver ions wash off. The silver ions will hold up the
> best to the "washing off" tests that I have seen.
> As a good builder, one has to look at all the options, warranty, ease of
> applicaiton, downtime to crews, customer service, etc. I have seen pros and
> cons to all the products and I don't think any one product is far superior to
> any of the others. They all seem to work to some degree, which is better than
> no application at all.
> Price is big in my market and since we live in the far NE winter applications
> are crucial. This is something that the Florida's and Cal don't have to worry
> about, but several Aegis applicators up here say they can not fog below
> freezing. Which makes sense, so spray on applications during the winter are much
> more appealing.
> I would like to stop seeing all you "experts" which I'm sure are company
> salesmen or company presidents just trying to market your products by chopping
> down other companies, just stop and start help us builders learn the ins and
> outs of applications and mold issues.
> On 11/12/04, Concerned wrote:
>> I would have to agree with John L. This chat room should be promoting the
>> industry as a whole. I also agree with Robert, that the facts, not opinions
>> should be addressed. There can only be one set of facts. I have done
>> extensive research on the following: Aegis, BioShield, Nova, CIA, Microbe
>> Guard, Microshield, American Mold Guard, Envirocare, PCG, Anabec, Fosters,
>> Anti-growth, Mold Block, Microban and Fiberlock. I have contacted and spoke
>> to people at the EPA and the three different States.
>> THis industry is in a fast growing pace and growing faster everyday. THe more
>> attention this industry gets, the more people want to get involved. Everyone
>> makes claims, some true, most false. If we as and industry do not work
>> together to better the industry as a whole, then we are all doomed to be be
>> associated with fly by night con men. I operate a small mold prevention
>> business and have been a restoration contractor since 1985. I have used all
>> of the above manufacturers products. YES, all of them! I have worked with
>> half a dozen other mold prevention contractor around the country going over
>> the same issues that we are all discussing here.
>> I have spent my money to test and have tested all the above products. I have
>> spoke to several EPA officials, several building associations and several
>> States. Here is what I know as fact!
>> 1. MOld is the biggest issue facing builders and homeowners across the country.
>> 2. Mold is every where and on everything.
>> 3. Builders need to prevent the growth of mold on the homes that they build.
>> So what is the best product, or products to accomplish this? Is EPA
>> registration required? Is EPA Registration important? How important is a
>> warranty? What is the difference between manufacturer warranty and third
>> party warranty? Here are the facts!
>> 1. What mold prevention product(s) do you use?
>> Is it a private label name or is the real product name. Several people use
>> private labels of their product, however the products are the same. American
>> Mold Guard, Microbe Guard, Anabec and Nova use BioShield. CIA and Microbe
>> Guard use Aegis. Microshield and Fiberlock use Microban.
>> 2. Who manufacture’s the mold prevention product(s)?
>> To ensure the product is manufactured by recognized, reputable manufacturer.
>> How financially stable is the manufacturer, how long have they been in
>> business, who is backing the product should it fail? Aegis's product has been
>> around for 27 years, Bioshield's product for 12 years, Nova for 2 years,
>> Fosters' products for 10 years, Envirocare for 3 years, PCG less than 1 year,
>> Microban 5 years. A product that has not been out for long can not make any
>> real claims on performance, can they? How can they have any real case
>> studies? Real world and lab are WAAAYYYY different.
>> 3. Is the product(s) EPA Registered? Should it be? I have copied the
>> following from the EPA offical web site:
>> "EPA registers and regulates antimicrobial pesticides under the Federal
>> Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA). To obtain registration,
>> manufacturers of antimicrobial products must meet the basic standards, the
>> foremost being: 1) that the product will not cause unreasonable adverse
>> effects to human health or the environment, and 2) that product labeling and
>> composition comply with the requirements of FIFRA. Moreover, manufacturers are
>> required to submit to EPA detailed and specific information concerning the
>> chemical composition of their product; effectiveness data to document their
>> claims against specific microorganisms and to support the directions for use
>> provided in labeling; labeling that reflects the required elements for safe
>> and effective use; and toxicology data to document any hazards associated with
>> use of the product."
>> The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) requires the
>> registration of any substance or mixtures of substances intended to prevent,
>> destroy, repel, or mitigate pests. However, the Code of Federal Regulations
>> prescribes the conditions under which an exemption from registration is
>> allowed for treated articles or substances. It allows an exemption for:
>> An article or a substance treated with or containing a pesticide to protect
>> the article or substance itself (for example, paint treated with a pesticide
>> to protect the paint coating) HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART THAT PCG,
>> ENVIROCARE, FORTICEL, FOSTERS AND MOLD BLOCK DO NOT WNAT YOU TO KNOW OR MAYBE
>> THEY DO NOT KNOW IT THEMSELFS;
>> •Claims for treated articles or substances are limited to the following
>> statement, "This product contains a preservative (e.g., fungicide or
>> insecticide) built-in or applied as a coating only to protect the product. An
>> example of an acceptable label statement would be:
>> Antimicrobial properties are built-in to inhibit the growth of bacteria that
>> may affect this product. The antimicrobial properties do not protect users or
>> others against bacteria, viruses, germs, or other disease organisms.
>> I have some first hand knowledge of this. I was sent a Cease & Desist order
>> from the EPA concerning the sell, application and marketing of PCG's three
>> products: Forticell, Agility and Mycodene. PCG was marketing their products
>> with claims that their product prevent the growth of mold on many surfaces.
>> THat is an illegal claim. PCG, Envirocare, Microban, Forticel and Mold Block
>> have EPA registered additives in their coating (paint) the coating can only
>> prevent the growth of mold on the surface of the paint coating. It will not
>> protect the wood or kill mold on the wood. I have copies of the Cease and
>> desist order should anyone like to see it.
>> 4.Provide MSDS and Technical Bulletin for each product.
>> The MSDS shows you the safety of the product and lists any dangerous
>> ingredients or dangerous health effects of the product. PCG do not even list
>> their ingredients. What are they hiding? BioShield, Nova, Fosters, Fiberlock
>> have several product for specific industries, make sure you get the right
>> one.The technical bulletin explains exactly how the product can be used as per
>> manufactures specifications.
>> 5.Does the company carry insurance that covers Mold or do they have E & O
>> insurance that covers mold? Almost every company told us that they have
>> insurance that covers mold. We checked. Most of them LIE! Ask for a copy of
>> their policy and call the insuarne company yourself.
>> 6.What warranty comes with your product and service? Manufacturer or third
>> party warranty?
>> Read and understand all warranties to verify what is being covered and how
>> much is being covered. I have seen much debate over this as of late. Do any
>> of you remember when H.O.W. filed for bankruptcy in the late 80's. THey left
>> hundreds of thousand of people with out warranties. EVERY STATE passed laws
>> after that to protect the consumer. Warranty Companies are now required to
>> keep 65&37; of their funds in an untouchable account and they can only
> warranty a
>> certain amount of business based on their finacial reserves. Manufacturers
>> can warranty anything that they want. What does this mean to all of us? ALL
>> warranties are only as good as the financial stability of the manufacturer.
>> THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO BE SURE OF!!!!!!!!!!!!! Several of the
>> above manufacturers just started out. I checked! PCG started in April of
>> 2004. My company is substantially bigger than them. Envirocare has been
>> kicked out of most markets by their own applicators. Microban has been kicked
>> out of many other countries, so they spun off a new Microban company. Fosters,
>> Aegis, Nova and Fiberlock are the only companies with any size. Nova is in
>> legal trouble with the owner of their technology, BioShield. Again, check the
>> facts, don't call the manufacturer. Anyone can tell you that they are
>> financially secure, if so, where are your financial statments? THird party
>> warranty is governed by insurance and state laws. Manufacturer warranties are
>> only as good as the manufacturer. Maybe the Manufacturer is much bigger than
>> the warranty company? Maybe the manufacturer is in big financial trouble?
>> 7. What is the chemistry behind the product or how does the product actually
>> prevent the growth of mold? Anyone can tell you that their product kills and
>> prevents the growth of mold, but how does it do it? The same way that we
>> can. Aegis, Anabec,American Mold Guard and Microbe Guard use a technology
>> based off a DOW Corning invention back in the 70's. Their products kill by
>> creating positively charge swords on the surface that is treated. THis stabbs
>> and electrocutes the mold. This coating is not digested by the mold and is a
>> permanent treatment. Envirocare and PCG use silver ions that are slowly
>> released when moisture is present to interupt the dna/growth/ cell activities
>> of the mold. THe mold most com into contact with the silver to be affected.
>> Good in theory, if you could plate the whole house. THis product will be
>> washed off water and overtime will be ineffective. Fosters, Fiberlock and
>> Microban use poisons. THe mold must digest the poison for the product to be
>> effective. This causes the product to loose effectiveness overtime as the
>> mold eats away the coating. It also cause the mold to become resistant to the
>> poison over time. Think about it, how does the mold prevention treatment
>> effect the mold? Stop believing what you hear and start believing in what you
>> see and prove for yourself.
>> 8.Are the applicators certified or trained to apply the product?
>> Microban, forticel, fosters, Nova, PCG and Envirocare certification is the
>> purchase of the product. In other words, there is NONE. If you buy it, you
>> can apply it. Agian I know because I have. Aegis makes you go through the
>> CIA or Microbe Guard. Microbe Guard and Anabec require training only if you
>> want a warranty.
>> 9.How long has their products been on the market? List references.
>> Products come and go. Lead paint and asbestos were thought to be safe and
>> turned out to be harmful. Just because they say it works in a lab, does not
>> mean that it works in real world applications. Show independent verification,
>> not in house verification. PCG just opened up, Envirocare's product came out
>> in 2002, Aegis's product came out in 1976, Foster's products came out over the
>> last ten years with products like 42-42 less than 2 years. Microban has
>> changed corporate structure so often I can't tell.
>> 10.How long have the companies you been in business?
>> Have the company been in business long enough to show their ability to survive
>> in a hostile market. Will they be around long enough to stand behind their
>> product? THis again falls back to who is backing the warranty? If the
>> manufacturer has been around for a long time, chances are they will remain.
>> If the manufacturer is new or has a short lived history, then I would want to
>> see some financial statsments.
>> 11.What professional organizations do you belong to?
>> Many organizations require training, proof of financial responsibility,
>> continued education and mandate ethical business practices. Request
>> verification of membership with professional organizations.
>> Call you local EPA OFFICE and ask them the questions. THey will point you to
>> the truth.
>> On 11/05/04, John L. wrote:
>>> On 11/03/04, Robert wrote:
>>>> On 11/03/04, Gilligan wrote:
>>>>> On 11/02/04, Robert wrote:
>>>>>> EPA registration is important only if you are actually applying a
>>>>>> pesticide. The EPA regulates pesticides. Most of the mold
>>>>>> prevention products do not contain pesticides. All the mold Killers
>>>>>> contain pesticides.
>>>>>> Paint products have all kinds of additives added to them and they do
>>>>>> not require EPA approval. The new mold prevention products are under
>>>>>> the same requirements. Those of you, who do not understand the
>>>>>> guidelines of the Gov't and what they are for are mislead
>>>>>> I have been a builder for years and understand water intrusions and
>>>>>> mold. To prevent is better than to react.
>>>>>> Several of the products on the market are designed to kill existing
>>>>>> mold on the product surface. This is good, but they do not last
>>>>>> (check the warranty claims) they also can be washed off by a water
>>>>>> intrusion over time. (once again not good because mold needs moisture
>>>>>> to grow).
>>>>>> Once you actually check out the facts you all will see that you should
>>>>>> prevent mold growth over the long term, see your states home owners
>>>>>> warranty (most are 10 years and then some).
>>>>>> Be very careful of fast talking salesmen that try to scare you away
>>>>>> from products or into using product. These guys are no good. Check
>>>>>> the facts warranties are very important, and it doesn't really matter
>>>>>> what state the parent company resides in. If the manufacturer doesn't
>>>>>> warrant the product then don't trust them. Chevy and Ford stand
>>>>>> behind their products so do several companies out there.
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